How We Got Here - Ep 8

Rachel: Hi everyone. I'm Dr. Rachel Lupien

Steph: and I’m Dr. Stephanie Spera.

Rachel: Our climate is in crisis and we all want to help, but we might not know how.

Steph: We're talking to people who have figured out how to use their talents to combat climate change and the hopes that their journey might inspire your own.

Rachel: This is how we got here: because the earth needs professional help.

INTRO

Rachel: Hey, Steph, how are you?

Steph: I'm good. How are you?

Rachel: I'm good. I'm good. Hey, do you still have tonsilitis?

Steph: No, modern medicine works out. Thanks science. How is your week? Good stuff. Bad stuff.

Rachel: Yeah. I had a great week. I feel really busy at work right now, but mostly like on top of a top of things.

Yeah, I, yeah, I don't know. I have some students in lab or moving things along. I'm running like three different instruments at the moment. This always, always happens where I'm like, not in lab, not working in lab for, I don't know, over a month maybe. And then all of a sudden I'm running three different things and it just happens with schedule.

Yeah, so, I mean, that's good and bad. It's like, I'm not getting much else done, but I'm going to have some new data soon. And can I, it is.

Steph: I have a question for you when you're running three different machines, this is what I'm picturing, but it might be inappropriate or you like, no, no, no, no.

But I do imagine you running from room to room to room and be like, is this okay? Is this okay? Is this okay? Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah. It's basically in three different rooms and I'm okay. I mean, um, you know, they can sit, I, I basically prepare samples for each one and then set them free. And then check-in one of the instruments takes a lot of babysitting.

So I will set up a run in the morning and then set up a run when I leave work overnight. Um, but I'm like, I need to like spend like a couple hours each day with it, which is a lot. But, um, so, so that's fine. It's just, when I'm also doing. Other instruments do it's it's just a lot, but new data is like maybe the best part of my job.

The one highlight of my week, which happened today. When I say my week, I really mean like the last two days. Cause we record on Tuesdays and then I totally forget what happened the week before.

But today I found out that, um, I got a little tiny, uh, proposal funded. I teamed up with a, with a grad student at Lamont, uh, and we put in a proposal to do a little post doc grad student mentor.

Steph: Ah, congratulations.

Rachel: Yeah. So that was cool. I'm excited to get to work on that. Yeah. Yeah.

Steph: That's great.

Rachel: How about you? What's what's going on besides post tonsillitis life?

Steph: Oh my God. So good. Um, I told myself let's not complain this week, but no, no, no. I'm not going to do it. I actually had a good week. A good two days. I don't know if anyone, if I've told you, I did tell you this, but I don't know if I told the podcast is on teaching weather, climate and society.

Everybody knows this. One of the goals was to launch. And, and there was a run on helium and I called party city and they were like, no, and I called air gas and they're like, there's no helium left. I will link to a terrifying article about how we are actually depleting the earth of helium, but they were like, we're only serving current clients, but Rachel, you told.

Rachel: Your university is filled with great clients. Yeah.

Steph: Yeah. You're like, I think chem and bio use helium.

Rachel: I mean, we use helium in my lab all the time.

Steph: Yeah. Yeah, you do. So I found the, um, the like chemistry ordering person. His name is Phil. He said that

Rachel: Phil, Phil delightful.

Steph: You're so good. , so my, my students, if you're listening, they were supposed to tell me in advance. We're going to launch today because they do that. Because we're, we have to, we were waiting for the jet stream to be pushing a very specific way.

So the weather balloon has to land over Southeastern Virginia and not DC obviously. Cause that's insane. I feel like it would get shot down. I mean, we do have to file a notice to airmen would do all the things correctly, but my students walk in today.

We're ready to go. Phil's on his way. And I was like, I guess I'm not teaching today. Phil showed up was cool with the chaos. We launched it this morning calculations were incorrect. So at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean.

Rachel: Oh wait what?

Steph: Yeah. So that's a, that's a good and bad right there.

Rachel: Did you learn, did they learn something?

Steph: I mean, we're going to go over the jet stream again. I think the way that they're there a few ways to calculate it and the very simple way that, uh, the, our manual told us to do so it was a little too simplistic. Um, but anyway, maybe we're, I'm really hoping some boat picks it up.

There was a parachute, and, uh, or it lands on the Eastern shores or phone numbers on. There's a GoPro on there. It's like goodbye. $1,000 is really what just happened, but I I was really proud of the helium.

And it was a really good experience. It was very cool. It would have been cooler if we could get. Data back.

Rachel: Did you get you kinda like a tiny bit of data?

Steph: We got, we got the trajectory. That's

Rachel: a no, let's wait for the water. Okay.

Steph: But do you know what, so actually here's the connection.

Our guest might be live in one of the places where that thing washes up. Mary Carson stiff is the director of policy at wetlands watch, which is a nonprofit dedicated to conserving Virginia. She provides legal and policy research on issues related to sea level rise, adaptation and coastal communities.

And she's an advocate for the continued use of green infrastructure to protect coastlines. She engages with anyone and everyone from citizens, local government, state, and federal agencies to the private sector to raise awareness and address issues of sea-level rise and increased flooding, which spoiler alert.

We just see a lot of here on the east coast with climate change. Mary Carson stiff is also a graduate of the college of William and Mary School of Law. And we're really excited to have her on the podcast. Welcome Mary Carson.

INTERVIEW

Steph: well, Mary Carson. Thanks for being. Our first question is what do you do? What's your job title to have a business card? And if so, what's on it. Colors, fonts.

Mary-Carson: Yeah. Actually our business card is really beautiful. In fact, it is often, um, you know, the topic of conversation we've been, we've been complimented for it.

I'm the policy director at wetlands. Well, And I'm going to pull a business card so y'all can see how pretty it is.

Steph: It is

Rachel: very pretty.

Steph: Oh, that's beautiful. Is that, is that a crane?

Mary-Carson: It's a great blue Heron Heron.

Rachel: I waited for her to say it before I said heron.

Mary-Carson: I am the policy director at Wetlands Watc. Which is a nonprofit based in Norfolk, Virginia, and we work statewide on the preservation and conservation of wetlands. We do that primarily through sea level rise adaptation. So we work really, we are statewide, but we extend into like the bay watershed and then down into North Carolina a little bit.

And then we work, um, at the national level, uh, with policy issues.

Rachel: Awesome. So what is your role really?

Mary-Carson: So I'm the policy director, which means that I work on kind of thinking of creative ways to implement programs that we're interested in. And, um, you know, basically enact changes and different laws and regulations that govern shoreline decisions.

Steph: So like, do you help make a law, or do you take a lot until people what you do with that law.

Mary-Carson: Actually, we do a little bit of both at wetlands watch, we work to develop legislation. Um, so writing bills that will eventually become laws.

And then we also work to better understand existing laws and figure out how, um, communities, mostly communities, that's kind of our biggest stakeholder group, how communities can work within those laws to accomplish the goals that they might want to accomplish. And then for. Accomplished the goals that wetlands watch wants to accomplish, which is, um, you know, protecting our natural ecosystem along the shoreline and making sure our wetlands have a place to go when they are faced with, um, rising sea level.

And that's a big challenge because there's a lot of stuff in the way of their migration. Landward cause they're going to drown.

Rachel: Just give us the bullet points of why wetlands are so important. We know they are.

Mary-Carson: Yeah, wetlands. I think people mostly understand the water quality benefit of wetlands.

They do a lot to clean our waterways. Um, they filter pollutants, the plants or the, the actual filters. Um, they also create a really important habitat or home for a lot of our important species that we rely on for what our quality for food web, which of course is it's an system. And if you disrupt the system, then.

Negative consequences. Um, so critters live in them, but then also our economy is directly tied to, um, wetlands, health and existence, uh, in Virginia, really specifically. So our aquaculture, um, industry is very important to our economy as is our, our other fisheries. So. Are very dependent on the existence of wetlands and they're going to drown if we don't find a place for them to go.

So, yeah. Great. And they're, and they're beautiful.

Steph: They are beautiful. And they're filled with blue herons

Rachel: Oh, speaking of which you mentioned, correct. Can we, what other critters could we expect in a wetland?

Mary-Carson: So like if you're walking in a neighborhood and, um, maybe your neighborhoods along the shoreline.

So when I'm walking with my, my two daughters, this is kind of what we look at when we're walking over, um, some wetland species on a walking path in our neighborhood. Um, there are Perry Winkles, you know, those they're kind of like snails that attach onto wetland stop. Oh, and like the Peyton's yet. And they're cling to a picture.

Um, that's like very visible, obviously crabs. Um, small crabs are, you know, living in our, in our Whelan species and the mud flats. Um, and then fish, lots of different crustacean species, mussels, oysters, um, And then, you know, in, in our urban area, we actually have a lot of, um, Muskrat's habitat. I don't know, in the wetlands, um, birds are, you know, using a lot of wetlands for, um, their nesting habitat, a lot of different species.

Steph: Yeah. My birder friends, like go to the east to drive east and Virginia to the wetlands.

Mary-Carson: . And that's where the birds like do a lot of stocking of their prey. It's like nothing cooler than watching a heron um, walk very slowly and then like dark directly into the water for a fish or crab.

Steph: But what's interesting also is that you're talking about them drowning because they have no place to go. And it's because if I understand correctly, if we did not develop the coasts at the level, we as a nation, Oh, Virginia and developed the coasts. We, the migrate, the wetlands could move in, right? But because we're like beach front property we're not letting the wetlands go anywhere.

Mary-Carson: Right? Yes. And it's wetlands, you know, they could, they could survive if they grow, um, vertically or a crate vertically, but, uh, the pace of sea level rise is higher than the accretion rates, vertical accretion.

And so technically if we weren't, um, if our sea level rise, wasn't so intense. Um, extreme. We might be able to have wetlands survive, however, that's not the situation that we're in. And so the only option for them and in most cases is to go landward or horizontal accretion. And that's kind of like the basis of a lot of our work.

I mean, we do a lot of things that well is watching and like have a ton of different programs that are sort of interrelated. Um, You know, that's, that's the real end goal with a sealable rise as our greatest threat. Yeah

Rachel: . They could actually adapt if the sea level rise wasn't happening.

Mary-Carson: They, yeah, they could. And in some places I think that they probably will survive, um, in certain areas. It's just, unfortunately the majority of our coastline definitely in Virginia and then. The Gulf coast as well.

Steph: Virginia has some of the fastest rates of sea level rise in the entire United States because not only is it sea level rise, but because of isostacy based on when a crater was here a while ago, the land is

Mary-Carson: actually sinking.

We're sinking faster than the sea is rising. That will change eventually. Like our, our, um, sea level rise will be higher than our sinking rate, but basically over the past century, we have had 18 inches of, um, of sea level rise. Yeah. 10 inches is from sinking and eight inches is from water rising, but you kind of bundle them together and you talk about as a combined sea level rise.

Rachel: it might even still not seem like that much. Like if you're standing in that much water, but when you spread that out horizontally on these wetlands, it's a huge area.

Mary-Carson: Yeah. And it's, our rate is doubling. So that's historic. That is the historic rate that we've experienced over the past 100 years, but we're looking at a double.

Steph: I don't know. It's always crazy to me, how much we develop the coasts and then what that with sea level rise with Virginia thinking, and then just, I don't know. .

Mary-Carson: And it, it wouldn't, it wouldn't feel so extreme in Norfolk, but for the fact that we filled in the city, . All of the flood way, like all of the flood maps and the flood zones, if you overlay a map of the historic Creek beds in the city, um, they're completely, you know, on top of each other. So you can tell exactly where all of our old creeks, all of the old wetlands were because it's where it floods today.

And it's, you know, the water is just going to come back. It's not, there's nothing you can do about it. And so had we known. Made those mistakes, the impacts would it be so severe? So in other places, it isn't as it isn't as extremely felt, um, as it is in Norfolk, but it, you know, it's that historical decision-making, that's just kind of ruining things for today

Steph: and Norfolk is not alone. Rachel and I went to school in Providence, Rhode Island. And Brook, do you remember Brook Street or Brook road? Flooded every time. And my last year of grad school, they spent, I woke up to, um, like Jack hammers everyday cause they were building bigger culverts to deal with the stream water. Address those issues, but these older cities where they're just like, let's fill in this like, hope for the best.

Well, Mary Carson on a day to day basis, would you actually do? You're not out there. Helping moving little plants, other place and critters. But what if we were to come and find you at wetlands watch, would you be in front of a computer or would you not be there? Would you be in a community meeting?

Mary-Carson: , I think it really varies, which is one of the reasons why I love working for Wetlands Watch. There's a lot of, um, you know, there's a lot of time spent in front of a computer, certainly because I'm doing a lot of research. But I spend a ton of time with local government staff and in the community with people.

So I like to think that, you know, the majority of my work is, um, is listening to people and partnering with people and trying to learn from listening and then take what I learned to develop. Um, whatever we think is a good idea. You know, to make it really informed and have some foundation in at least some people's truth for what they think is happening and feel is happening and how they're experiencing the impacts of.

Steph: Could you give us an example of something that like wetlands watched has helped push through that has changed maybe the way a house's zoned or maybe how much money someone gets for if it's flooded or

Mary-Carson: wetlands watch has advocated for a lot of adaptive building code standards to help keep structures safer from flooding.

Um, we also in the, in the 2020 legislative session and the general assembly of Virginia, we were involved in a lot of different pieces of legislation and policy that helped strengthen shoreline protection. Um, and that includes, you know, updates to our title, wetlands act, standards and guidelines. Um, You know, making sure that living shorelines are the first choice for erosion control before you put a hardened structure down and won't work everywhere, but everybody should strive for something live in before they go with something hard.

And, um, and then finally our Chesapeake bay act. So like everywhere, that is a part of the bay watershed has a 100 foot buffer that's required to be maintained along the shoreline. And, um, we help develop and pass legislation that requires that climate change be considered in, um, different, you know, permits to do anything in that buffer.

Steph: We have a new governor coming in one of us anyways. Very not excited. I can put myself out there like that.

Mary-Carson: We're nervous about a lot of the hard work of the north administration and the secretary of natural resources under Northam was particularly effective in the resilience space.

And, um, yeah, we're nervous. We'd like to think that. Um, Younkin we'll focus on the bipartisan issue that is flooding and, um, you know, whether or not he thinks climate change is human caused or not. You know, I wish that he, I wish the best for how he thinks about this, but it doesn't matter call whatever you want, the problem, you know, the problem is still there.

And unfortunately like all the impacts for sea level rise for our coastal committee. They're baked in your mitigation actions are not going to make a difference for the majority of our communities that are right on the coast. They will help, like in the longest, longest term, but, you know, 2100 seal, whereas, um, uh, projection.

I'm not sure there's anything that we can do. Unfortunately,

Steph: this is the darkest-

Rachel: Bring it back and yes, so what initially got you interested in this environmental and climate work that you're doing now?

Mary-Carson: Yeah. Um, I, so I think that probably in high school is when everything kind of really started for me. Um, I had this amazing, um, AP environmental science teacher, Dr. Peter McClain at St. Andrew's school in Middletown Delaware.

Steph: Wait, why were you in Delaware then?

Mary-Carson: Oh, I went to board boarding school. Yeah. So, so Dr. McLean. Um, he, yeah, he was just awesome. And he talked about, you know, the interconnectedness of everything and that really struck a chord with me. And I just was completely hooked ever since, ever since his class.

And I feel like felt super inspired to, you know, want to be a part of something bigger than yourself. I feel like, you know, my, my parents and growing up in a small town, you know, there's like this element of, of service and accountability to others that I really think is important as humans. And it certainly helped shape, you know, me.

My interest in this field. And so anyway, that was his kind of stick. And then I went to college thinking that, um, you know, it'd be an environmental science major. I went to a liberal arts college in Maine and ended up

Steph: , I feel like we've actually some, well, first of all, I love Maine. And second of all, I think a lot of people accidentally on this podcast have like, had a stint in maine.

Rachel: Environmentalist are born in Maine. ,

Mary-Carson: Well, Maine is, um, their state motto is "the way life should be" and they are so right. Let's go to Maine. Y'all everybody has to go to Maine, everybody. And I, so yeah, I ended up being an English major and then in the summers and, um, study abroad, I know it was stupid, but

Steph: can I, can we back it up real quick. High school doctor. I only remember Peter

Rachel: McClain, McClain, McClain.

Mary-Carson: He's getting so much time

Rachel: He deserves it,

Steph: He like had this spark for environmental science. What was your very first job jobs? Do you have a job in high school? I sure. Yeah. And was it related to.

Mary-Carson: Um, not really. So my first job was at our Y MCA. I worked with the members of the desk, right? So I like scanned cards and signed kids up for swim lessons and, you know, the class or whatever the heck people were doing summer summer camp. So that was my first job. And then my second job, um, I worked at a wholesale nursery in the, in the tree farm.

Um, so like where they potted everything and grew it before they moved it over to the outside.

Steph: But then, so you went to college and thought environmental studies, but it sounds like you did not end up there.

Mary-Carson: Yeah. I, well, I wasn't like too pumped about. The classes. I mean, I do not want to disparage my college experience at that school or whatever, but I just wasn't like, wasn't feeling it.

And then I was really feeling like I love to read and be outside and sort of that I was where I was, and I really liked the English department and I really liked English classes. And then I spent my summers. So this is kind of like helpful for people who might not know. Like the particular program in their college, but you can do things to develop your own little programs.

So I developed my own concentration in environmental policy slash studies. I made it for myself and in my head. Um, but I like to this summer program, um, with the university of, uh, or university of North Carolina Chapel hill at Cambridge, um, in the UK and they had like a carbon policy study abroad summer program that was really interested in, so that was kind of carbon reduction and more on the actual mitigation side of things. And then my study abroad was focused on, um, on natural resource management for developing nations.

So it was policy oriented

Rachel: where you doing a lot of writing in those

Mary-Carson: Well, actually, you know what, and they, they were really practical based.

And this was like my, both of my experiences, like the one, um, in the UK, we were working with the residents. Um, we worked with that, like we had a client, so it was like both of these programs were very clinical oriented, which I am so directed towards. And. When I was in law school was very involved in a clinical program and then ended up working for it after the fact, because this idea of practical experience and having like real world impact was just available to me at this young, th this young age, which is think it's just really unusual.

And so in the UK, it was working with the city of Cambridge, uh, and doing kind of like a survey of residents around their carbon reduction policies, um, and then research and writing a little bit. And then in India it was, um, you know half of it was, uh, clinical.

Right? And then the second half you had to do an internship. And I did an internship with a non-profit that focused on, um, natural resource, you know, natural resource management, essentially. And that was in villages in India, working with their stakeholders and their population of, of mostly, um,

Steph: So it sounds like these two experiences really gave you this like, I love this applied work and I like, like you, you started working with stakeholders and people from the start, what you're doing now, which was really interesting to see the tie through. .

Mary-Carson: It's such a, not, you know, not typical of a lot of programs. So I don't know. I don't think I was like thinking, oh, this is the play I was making that.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay. We start off and Dr. Peters. So then we went to, you went to college and didn't love the vibe of the environmental science stuff. So you switched to English and loved the program. Did a couple awesome, like more applied study abroad programs.

Then what did you do after college?

Mary-Carson: I guess. So I graduated in 2008, right? , it was really bad. So during college, I was working for non-profits and doing stuff like that too.

Steph: And are they environmental nonprofits or you were just like, let me see nonprofit world.

Mary-Carson: Environmental. This is applied. So like, this is cool. I'm sort of realizing this about my past. So figuring it out together.

And so there's the non-profit, um, it's still around, it's called Earth Day Network and I worked for them, um, the summer before my senior year. And they do a lot of, um, environmental literacy and education in schools and a lot in charter schools. Um, and then a lot in, in public, uh, underserved community schools.

And. That was really interesting. And I was lined up to work for them after college. And so I was like, oh, my best friends from college, like, well, let's all get jobs in DC. And more than that. And then I was like, you know, everybody, a lot of people did come to DC. It was awesome. But then I lost my, the job. I didn't, they like couldn't find the funding for it.

Steph: Did you have a 12 month lease? Could you get out?

Mary-Carson: Yeah, it was, um, Well, yeah, I got notified, I think. Yeah, I'm sure it already moved there at that point. Um, with my friends, you know, it had a bunch of girls living in a house in Northern Virginia.

And then, um, I just started like literally knocking on doors at schools and being like, can I teach, substitute teach? I don't know. All of it. I like took a class for substitute teaching. You had to get certified, I think, to be a substitute teacher.

Um, well I couldn't, oh my gosh. I had to do math in an interview. It was like lots of fractions, and it was awful and I was sweating so bad and they were like, are you ill?

Rachel: I think in the last episode I literally just went, math is fun.

Steph: Oh my God. Rachel is a mathlete,

Rachel: terrible writer. Terrible words. Do not make sense to me,

Steph: But so, but you are essentially jobless and you actively were just like, I need a job. So I'm going to sub and figure out how to make that work.

Mary-Carson: Yeah. Or do whatever. Yeah. Sending out, you know, just hitting the pavement basically. Can I please get a job? So then, um, I ended up getting a job. At a boarding school in Alexandria Episcopal high school. And I had looked at the school, um, when I was looking at boarding schools and knew a couple of people at the school.

And anyway, it was really lucky.

Rachel: Um, and you are not a math teacher there.

Mary-Carson: Oh my gosh. No, I was a, not a teacher. I O um, I D worked in the development office.

Steph: Oh, you were trying to get that money

Mary-Carson: raising money. And I did alumni relations straight experience.

It was really good. Um, and you know, philanthropy it's like when people feel really connected to it, They're inclined to give. And I really loved my boarding school experience and felt a lot of feelings about it. And I felt like it was easy to translate that. And the best part about the job Episcopal.

I mean, the people were awesome and it was a great school to be working, but I got to coach. Um, as like, you know, in a boarding school, everybody's teaching and they're also coaching and they're like in charge of clubs and they drive kids to the store. Right. It's like a full blown experience. And I wasn't living on campus and didn't have to do a lot of like carting kids around, but I did get to croach, um, a sport that I played in high school and college.

A little stint in college, but not much time. And that was really fun. So I feel like it was great and a really unintended situation, completely separate from what I wanted to do in my life and,

Rachel: and different from what you thought you'd be doing on when you, the day you graduated, right?

Mary-Carson: Oh, I know. And after graduation, I think it's like a, wouldn't talking with students and stuff like that, you know, it just worked out.

Rachel: I can't imagine moving somewhere and then being like no money. Remember that job. We promised you last year now,

Steph: but now you can wake up at 5:00 AM with high school students and get on the water.

Mary-Carson: Boarding school. They do it not in the morning.

, I didn't know that early life, early practice link until college and in Maine at 3:30 in the morning, when you wake up, it was like pretty cultish and it wasn't like that in high school. I didn't really like that part of it, but then also the freezing nature of like where I was, and that was miserable. It, it was just too, too cold.

Rachel: I'd rather be in my extra long twin bed right now asleep.

How'd you get back? How'd you get back in the environmental game.

Mary-Carson: Yeah. So, um, I went to law school, you know? Yeah. Well, I mean, well, I was trying to decide between, um, so I wanted to do environmental work and I knew that I wanted to have an advanced degree, so I could have different doors opened and, um, was deciding between policy at school. . And there are like environmental studies schools too, right. Just, or a master's in environmental studies or environmental politics. So I talked to a bunch of different people and they were, you know, like, don't go to law school.

Whatever you do.

Steph: And, um, spoiler alert, Mary Carson went to law school.

Mary-Carson: Yeah. So here's my plug for people. If you want to do policy don't go to law school. Like why, why, why would you do it? And I can tell you that I talked to so many different people who went to law school who are doing policy work and they were like, please just don't do it.

And then you'd sort of, they'd read your face and they'd say, okay, well I know you're going to do it because obviously that's like what we all did. We were all. But if you could just not be stupid, then that would be great.

Steph: I guess I need as someone who did not go to law school and did not ask about going to law school, why did they tell you, is it the cost of law school or is it the, like, why was everyone like, absolutely don't go to law school for this also. Why were you like, I am going to go.

Mary-Carson: Well, so like re like Rachel said, because you don't need the degree. Um, and I feel like the reason why people think that they should, if they want to do policy work is because, you know, you can, I don't know. Maybe you can fall back on it, I guess, but if it's more about, like, if you have a law degree, then it will open any door possible.

It's sort of like a Trump card or that's how people, I think, think of it, which knowing now, you know what I do and who I work with it is certainly not. And, and the re you know, the, the, like, why would you not, um, stress, money? Yeah. Time. Misery,

Steph: like what drove you to be like masters of public policy and then what drove you to also be like, I'm not taking that bar exam

Mary-Carson: yeah. Well, I think that, you know, I like everybody thought it would open the most doors and it would be like the broadest understanding of how a system works.

Right. And how you want to operate within the system. So I don't know, that's kind of what I was thinking, but I don't think it was, I don't think it was necessary because, you know, when you. You get to law school and you learn about, okay, well, how could I work within the environmental field and in law school?

And it's kind of like you take environmental law 1 0 1. And you realize that people that work in the field are sitting on a desk and they're reading, um, really dense code and fighting about who has standing well,

Steph: Rachel and I have a few, we've talked about this, Mary Carson to each other and not anybody else.

We have a few friends who are environmental lawyers, and I would say don't love their job. And a lot of it is like my good friend, Peter Murrey who is an Esquire, I think, I know one of the cases he fought though was what, like whether or not the shoreline in Michigan has standing and where that is a thick, but like why like tort law, right?

Mary-Carson: Oh, um, yeah, that's like when somebody basically hurts you, right. If that's a tort or like a mall or something like that,

Steph: but Rachel and I have had this conversation where like, we can't ask our actual environmental practicing lawyers

Mary-Carson: I know. So I think that whatever. I could have gone to policies. One, I ended up taking policy classes, um, that were kind of intersectional. And then after law school, or like during, during law school, it all worked out. That's where, um, William and Mary has. So that's where I attended law school. Um,

Steph: and then you were by the wetlands.

Mary-Carson: Yeah. And near my family and all that stuff, but they had just started a clinical program at William and Mary. That was, um, called the Virginia coastal policy clinic. And now it's a center. And so during law school, I'm like, I'm going to do land conservation. I worked for. An organization that's like the membership organization for all land trusts in America, the land trust Alliance.

Then I worked for Virginia state agency land trust, color, Virginia outdoor foundation, outdoors foundation, VOF. And I was like, oh, I'll just work in this field because I love land, conserving it as important. You know, there are a lot of benefits to, you know, climate in terms of, um, carbon capture and, you know, it's, it's great.

And Virginia. Such wonderful, beautiful places that is real, you know, it's worthwhile to protect and there's a lot of, kind of intersectionality with land conservation and climate. And so that's kind of what I was thinking. But then in our, in my last year they had this program, this clinical program that was all about, Hey, we live really close to an area where there's like massive flooding, so let's focus on it and just talk about it.

Really piqued my interest. And as soon as I learned what sea level rise was doing to Hampton roads, I was like, game over. This is what I have to do. This is my hometown area. I can't believe the impacts are this bad. I had no idea it was going to be so bad because climate, I was really focused on the mitigation, like stopping the pollutants from contributing to, to impact.

And I was like, oh, well, this is. Way more important to me and, you know, thinking about like the birthplace of the nation, right? I mean, birthplace of, of our nation, um, the United States being in coastal, Virginia, Southeastern Virginia, and knowing that Jamestown island is going to be completely. Yeah, that I was like, this is so amazing.

I want to focus on this. You need to know. Yeah. And so it ended up working out great, but people, you know, whatever, maybe you don't want to go to law school and maybe you do. I can't say I should. I wish I hadn't gone. Cause I also met my husband there and like, oh, hi. Like I really glad I made that decision and it's.

Really well, so just goes to show whatever you do, whatever, like less stake in your decision-making it's little, it'll be fine.

Rachel: But also does your husband know an environmental lawyer, can we talk to them?

Mary-Carson: He does bankruptcy law and commercial transactions. So he likes math.

Steph: Uh, Mary Carson, if there were no climate crisis, then what would you or crisis of sea-level erosion. My real question. If there were no climate crisis, Mary Carson, what would you be doing? I'm doing double duty.

Rachel: We had a little discussion of what was going well. And you didn't mention that you had a foccacia rising next to you.

Steph: But okay, MaryCarson, you would, you would not be a baker if there were no climate crisis.

Mary-Carson: Now, if there is no climate crisis. So like no, none of it. Everything's great.

Steph: And you can put stuff back in, I guess.

I mean, you, do you, I mean, I guess Virginia would still be shrinking a little bit, but if you weren't doing this line of work, what would you be doing?

Rachel: Yeah. If you were burdened by the need to help the wetlands and the people living around.

Mary-Carson: Good question. Yeah. I think maybe land conservation. I just love the idea of, of protecting land because development is kind of a bummer in places where it hasn't been before.

And like, my hometown was very gobbled up in terms of kind of the farm land being developed, um, pretty quickly. And so watching it before your eyes, as a kid, it just kind of stinks.

Steph: Makes me realize why you love Maine so much. It's filled with land trusts.

Mary-Carson: Maine and Connecticut, Connecticut, for some reason just has a ton .

Steph: Mary-Carson do your pets do their social media do you have pets, do they have a social media presence? Tell us more.

Mary-Carson: Um, yeah, we have a dog. His name is Commisioner Gorden. Um, he goes by Gordy and, he's a golden doodle, but he's mostly like, it looks like a poodle, like a black poodle. He's very smart and also very stupid at the same time. He's like he is so he's capable of so much, but he, we don't ask much of him.

Steph: Does he have his own social media presence? You have a social media presence that we should link to.

Mary-Carson: Okay. Yeah. OnTwitter I'm so not active. I have like one tweet about somebody in like a line at a coffee shop. Like mom shaming, me, not really mom, but like acting like a mom and telling me my skirt was wrong or something

Rachel: We'll set our fans against this person,

Steph: right in the same way that Taylor swift has her Swifties we have our, what do we call?

Rachel: We're going to get that scarf back.

Steph: Maggie donated it to Goodwill years ago.

Mary-Carson: Wait, was it Maggie's or was it Jake's? I like don't know.

Steph: Well, she left it at Maggie's house when she was visiting with Jake is my hot take. I mean, that's my read on it, right? Cause isn't what else? How many sisters is Jake Gyllenhaal have?

Mary-Carson: Well, that's really funny. I feel like I missed, I feel like I missed all of that. And then all of a sudden, um, My social media was like, so anti- JakeGyllenhaal, and I thought he better not have done something stupid. Hashtag me too.

Steph: No, no. 10 years ago, just Taylor swift. Yeah. And okay. 10 years ago she wrote a long version of this song All Too Well, short one was on the original album, Red, she's releasing all of her albums. So she was, she like over the years, they were like, there's this 10 minute version out there.

Yes. And there's the movie. Yes. And I will complain about this movie here as someone who's watched it. I was like, here for it. I'm here for Taylor Swift. I'm here it, the movie, I was like, you know what? This does feel like she captures what it would be like for a 20 year old todate a 30year old, these fights feel like petty and real imperfect.

And I thought the younger Taylor was great. And I do not think Taylor swift should have played the old, the 13 years later, taylor. I just don't understand why you just couldn't put like thicker eyeliner on the original actress anyway, I have a lot of thoughts on that,

Rachel: steph has a different podcast on this called

Steph: How Taylor got here? No, I know very little compared to a lot of people. I know, but I think it's insane. I mean, the whole thing's insane. The end of that video, it's like fake Jake Gyllenhaal wearing the scarf. We're looking at her 13 years later and I'm like, I like the confidence Taylor swift has is just something we should all strive.

Rachel: I only saw it on SNL and I missed the end or she's in it. I don't know if they played that on.

Steph: I don't know. And there's a whole fight scene to fight scenes that you missed. No, no, no.

They didn't play the whole thing.. You didn't Google 10 minute all too well in your spare, like 30 minutes of time this weekend and watch it.

Mary-Carson, tThank you so much for talking to us. I'm so sorry. This took a turn.

Mary-Carson: I love it. It's honestly, it's like how many degrees is Taylor swift? She always comes up.

Steph: And I don't mind.